Yes, Hybrid Grapes Do Make Good Wine with Dancing Dragonfly

Wave goodbye to wine intimidation—this episode of Everyday Sommelier uncorks a future where hybrid grapes and cold climate winemaking take center stage. Yes, you should try them. Now!

Join me as I sits down with James Peterson and Mark Wedge at Dancing Dragonfly Winery in Wisconsin, unlocking the secrets behind critically acclaimed Midwest wines made from grapes like Marquette, Frontenac, La Crescent, and more.

Uncover why traditional vinifera grapes can’t thrive in Wisconsin’s short, icy growing season, and see how innovative hybrid varieties developed by teams like the University of Minnesota empower local wineries to produce bold, balanced, and food-friendly wines with surprising complexity. 

We're diving into the science behind hybridization, the learning curve of typicity, and how Midwest winemakers are rewriting the rules for wine style, blending, and customer experience.

You’ll gain actionable takeaways on how to shop for, taste, and enjoy these rebel-region wines, even if you’re a classic Cabernet or Chardonnay lover. This is your go-to guide for building wine fluency and confidence in one of wine’s fastest-rising movements—minus the snobbery.

BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL DISCOVER:

• Why Midwest wineries rely on hybrid grapes, and the science behind their resilience
• How to bridge the gap from classic wine preferences to falling in love with new grape varieties
• What to expect from the acidity, sweetness, and style spectrum of cold climate wines
• How “wine snobbery” is being replaced by experimentation and genuine wine enjoyment in the Midwest

KEY TIMESTAMPS:

• [00:06:11]
  Midwest Winters vs. Wine Grapes: The Survival Challenge
  Why traditional vinifera wines aren’t viable in Wisconsin, and how hybrids win the climate battle.
• [00:10:13]
  Are Hybrid Grapes Always Foxy? Debunking Common Tasting Myths
  Addressing taste misconceptions and revealing today’s quality improvements in hybrid winemaking.
• [00:14:24]
  How Midwest Wines Redefine Typicity and Wine Style
  Exploring the new rules and creative freedoms as winemakers pioneer style profiles for unknown grapes.
• [00:18:06]
  Acidity, Sweetness, and What to Expect in Your Glass
  A breakdown of the Midwest flavor profile—why sugar balances acidity, and what it means for food pairings.
• [00:25:51]
  Pair Like a Pro: Turning Hybrid Wines into Your Dinner Power Move
  How to confidently pair high-acid, hybrid wines with modern meals, enhancing both flavor and confidence.
• [00:30:03]
  Rebel Wine Regions: Why You Need to Explore Hybrids Now
  Smart shopping advice for consumers ready to expand beyond the usual suspects and support Midwest wine.

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Transcript

Kristi Mayfield (00:00)
Let's imagine there's a new wine bar in town and the two of us have decided we must go visit. We get there, it's a Thursday night, it's a gorgeous setting, the wine list gets put on our table, we pick it up and Chambourcin Cayuga White, Marechal Foch Baco Noir, Traminet, what are these wines?

And where do they even come from? In today's episode, join me as I visit Dancing Dragonfly Winery and get deep down into what hybrid grapes are, where they're grown, why they exist, and why you should definitely add them to the list of wines you seek out. Stay tuned.

Kristi Mayfield (01:20)
My favorite vacations and adventures combine a little bit of golf and a whole lot of winery visits. And it is during those visits I have come across some absolutely fabulous wines made from varietals I had never even heard of, many of which I can't even pronounce, such as Marechal Foch But one of the things that excites me the most about these varietals

is how they are not only conquering climate change and pests and all kinds of things that can destroy a grapevine, but the winemakers behind them are sharing their passion, getting the word out, and hybrid grapes and the wines they produce are on the rise. And at Dancing Dragonfly, we are going to be exploring

all the different styles of wines they make and why hybrid grapes are the grapes of choice

Kristi Mayfield (02:21)
I have the distinct pleasure of being up in.

In-person participant 1 (02:21)
I have the distinct pleasure of being up

the northern part of the states in Wisconsin at Dancing Dragonfly Winery. And I am sitting here with James and Mark. And can you do a quick introduction? Tell us what you do here at Dancing Dragonfly. Sure. My name is James. I'm the tasting room manager and club manager here at Dancing Dragonfly. I've been here just over a year and a half now.

Kristi Mayfield (02:24)
the northern part of the states in Wisconsin at Dancing Dragonfly Winery. And I am sitting here with James and Mark. And can you a quick introduction? Tell us what you do here at Dancing Dragonfly. Sure. My name is James. I'm the tasting room manager and club manager here at Dancing Dragonfly. I've been here just over a year and half now.

In-person participant 1 (02:44)
And I'm Mark, head winemaker and part-time vineyard manager. There's no such thing as part-time when it comes to wine. We all know that.

Kristi Mayfield (02:44)
And I'm Mark, head winemaker and part-time vineyard manager. There's no such thing as part-time when it comes to wine. We all know that.

In-person participant 1 (02:52)
reason I'm really excited to be here today is when we think about the world of wine.

Kristi Mayfield (02:52)
the reason I'm really excited to be here today is when we think about the world of wine

The first thing that comes to people's minds are varietals like Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon the members of the Vinus Vinifera varietal, but when we're in this part of the world things change dramatically and we're not seeing on your tasting room list a lot of those names that people think about when they

In-person participant 1 (02:59)
The first thing that comes to people's minds are varietals like Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, the members of the Venice Venifera varietal. But when we're in this part of the world, things change dramatically and we're not seeing on your tasting room list a lot of those names that people think about when they think

Kristi Mayfield (03:19)
about wines. We're seeing varietals that fall into the category of many people have never

In-person participant 1 (03:19)
about wines. We're seeing varietals that fall into the category of hybrids many people have never

heard of these different varietals. So James, I'd like to start off with you. People come in, they might expect something that they are familiar with. They look at your wine list, they don't recognize anything. What do you do? How do you get them to embrace what you're doing here? Yeah, so I mean we do have a lot of people who come

Kristi Mayfield (03:26)
heard of these different varietals. So James, I'd like to start off with you. People come in, they might expect something that they are familiar with, they look at your wine list, they don't recognize anything. What do you do? How do you get them to embrace what you're doing here? Yeah, so I mean we do have a lot of people who you know come

in and say I want Moscato, I Merlot, Cabernet. And of course, you know, while there are some hybrids that get kind

In-person participant 1 (03:47)
in and say I want Moscato, want Merlot, Cabernet, and of course, you know, while there are some hybrids that get kind

kind of close in flavor profile, they are very much different. thing that I love to do and try to instruct staff to do people to think about what they're drinking, like, intentionally. Like, what is it that you like about Cabernet? And that's a great kind of jumping off point

Kristi Mayfield (03:56)
of close in flavor profile, they are very much different. ⁓ So, one thing that I love to do and try to instruct staff to do is, get people to think about what they're drinking like intentionally. Like what is it that you like about Cabernet? ⁓ And that's a great kind of jumping off point.

to start in on that conversation, if it's easy grapes like Pinot Noir, Marquette

In-person participant 1 (04:15)
to start in on my conversation. especially if it's easy grapes like Pinot Noir, know, Marquette.

Kristi Mayfield (04:22)
is a

In-person participant 1 (04:22)
is a great,

Kristi Mayfield (04:23)
way to start that conversation being as Marquette is the derivative of Pinot Noir, being able to pinpoint, I like those cherry notes. I like those lighter body red wines. It gives us that avenue to go, hey, you love this. Now check out what we're doing. ⁓ And then that conversation about the hybridization process and what that does to the chemistry of the grape.

In-person participant 1 (04:23)
way to start that conversation being as Marquette is the derivative of Pinot Noir, being able to pinpoint, I like those cherry notes. I like those lighter body red wines. It gives us that avenue to go, hey, you love this. Now check out what we're doing. ⁓ And then that conversation about the hybridization process and what that does to the chemistry of the grape.

Kristi Mayfield (04:51)
that occur and

In-person participant 1 (04:51)
that occur and

Kristi Mayfield (04:53)
you sometimes do find those people start to think about the process of wine and their relationship with wine gets a little bit more nerdy which is something that you know I have always I've been in the industry 13 years sometimes struggled with the snobbery of wine. You're singing my song. Yeah so like you know there's been this notion for many years in this country that if you don't drink Cabernet, if you don't

In-person participant 1 (04:53)
you sometimes do find those people start to think about the process of wine relationship with wine gets a little bit more nerdy, which is something that, you know, I have always, I've been in the industry 13 years, sometimes struggled with the snobbery of wine. Yeah, singing my song. Yeah, so like, you know, there's been this notion for many years in this country that if you don't drink Cabernet, if you don't

Kristi Mayfield (05:21)
drink Chardonnay, you're not a true wine drinker ⁓ and you know it's kind of cliche but the best wine in the world is the one that you like so being able to undress that snobbery and get people to approach it in their own way is really where people will gleam on.

In-person participant 1 (05:21)
drink Chardonnay, you're not a true wine drinker. ⁓ And you know, it's kind of cliche, but the best wine in the world is the one that you like. So being able to undress and get people to approach it in their own way is really where people will gleam on or

get on to what we're doing here.

Kristi Mayfield (05:43)
get on to what we're doing here.

And that's a great way of doing it. I always teach three buckets of red wine three bucks of white wine. If you can tell me what bucket you like then we can start expanding and exploring a little bit more. taking that now out into the vineyard

In-person participant 1 (05:45)
And that's a great way of doing it. always three buckets of red wine, three bucks of white wine. If you can tell me what bucket you like, then we can start expanding and exploring a little bit more. So taking that now out into the vineyard

Kristi Mayfield (06:00)
from a perspective of...

In-person participant 1 (06:00)
from a perspective of

Kristi Mayfield (06:01)
Why, Mark, do you not just plant the traditional varietals and let people have what they think they want? Why hybrids? Well, the short answer is they won't grow here. The medium short answer is even if they survived our winters, we have a 100-day growing season. Now, this year is incredibly unique. It's...

In-person participant 1 (06:01)
Why, Mark, do you not just plant the traditional varietals and let people have what they think they want? Why hybrids? Well, the short answer is they won't grow here. The medium short answer is even if they survived our winters, we have a hundred day growing season. Now this year is incredibly unique. It's...

Kristi Mayfield (06:24)
It's October 24th and last night we had our first killing frost. I can't think of a time when it's ever been this late. There's been far more times where we are concerned about an early frost in the third week of September, fourth week of September. We don't typically get those up here, but by the first week of October, it's almost a guarantee.

In-person participant 1 (06:24)
It's October 24th and last night we had our first killing frost. I can't think of a time when it's ever been this late. There's been far more times where we are concerned about an early frost in the third week of September, fourth week of September.

We don't typically get those up here, but by the first week of October, it's almost a guarantee.

Again, we'll defoliate over the weekend, but that's only because the leaves died last night. Right. ⁓ So, who knows? Maybe in another 15 years, there might be some vinifera up here. But the short answer is it can't survive our low temperature.

Kristi Mayfield (06:51)
Again, we'll defoliate over the weekend, but that's only because the leaves died last night. Right. ⁓ So, who knows? Maybe in another 15 years, there might be some Linifera up here. But the short answer is, it can't survive our low temperatures

In-person participant 1 (07:12)
temperatures

and the growing season isn't long enough. Now, I say that, but at the University of Minnesota, on the west side of the metro, they have their Horticultural Research Center and they do have a different growing there for breeding stock.

Kristi Mayfield (07:12)
and the growing season isn't long enough.

I say that, but at the University of Minnesota, on the west side of the metro, they have their Horticultural Research Center, and they do have the different growing there for breeding stock.

In-person participant 1 (07:27)
But every year, those are grown on a, what we call a J trellis. And so they come out of the ground at like a 45 and they sweep up to a vertical position. But every year they unpin them from the vineyard, lay them down, pin them down, cover them in dirt and straws. Yes, they bury

Kristi Mayfield (07:27)
But every year, those are grown on what we call a J trellis. And so they come out of the ground at like a 45 and they sweep up to a vertical position. Every year, they unpin them from the vineyard, lay them down, pin them down, cover them in dirt and straw so they can survive.

In-person participant 1 (07:44)
them. Yes, yes. But they are growing those, you know, for...

Kristi Mayfield (07:45)
But they are drawing those for pollen.

In-person participant 1 (07:50)
for pollen,

Kristi Mayfield (07:52)
mainly for the hybridization process. So it's kind of a breeding ground rather than active vineyards where you're pulling off the grapes. I think there's been a couple years where they've actually taken a little bit of a harvest and tried to do something with it, but it is very inconsistent and generally you're never going to see the ripeness that one would expect. Right. So technically, scientifically, what is a hybrid grape?

In-person participant 1 (07:52)
mainly for the hybridization process. So it's kind of a breeding ground rather than active vineyards where you're pulling off the grapes. I think there's been a couple years where they've actually taken a little bit of a harvest and tried to do something with it, but it is very inconsistent and generally you're never going to see the ripeness that one would expect. Right. So technically, scientifically, what is a hybrid grape?

Sure.

Kristi Mayfield (08:20)
Sure.

Well, ⁓ without going too deep in the science, we have Vitis vinifera, which are the ancient varieties, and we have Vitis raparia and Vitis ⁓ labrusca, which are more Native American varieties. ⁓ Raparia is common up here. It's a river grape, ⁓

In-person participant 1 (08:21)
Well, without going too deep in the science, we have Vitis vinifera, which are the ancient varieties, and we have Vitis raparia and Vitis labrusca, which are more Native American varieties. Raparia is common up here. It's a river grape.

Kristi Mayfield (08:44)
extremely cold tolerant, but extremely acidic and bitter.

In-person participant 1 (08:44)
extremely cold tolerant, but extremely acidic and bitter.

So what they are doing in the process is they're, this isn't a GMO sort of scenario. It's the use of pollen from a vinifera onto the flower of something more native. And that's how they're doing their crosses. And these crosses, it can take 10 years to get a valid vine out of this.

Kristi Mayfield (08:48)
So what they are doing in the process is there, this isn't a GMO sort of scenario. It's the use of pollen from a vinifera onto the flower of something more native. And that's how they're doing their crosses. And these crosses, it can take 10 years to get a valid vine out of this.

Does the seed from the grape, from the flower ...

In-person participant 1 (09:11)
Does the seed from the grape from the flower...

Kristi Mayfield (09:16)
actually survive and does it grow? Does the vine grow? What are the growth habits? Is it disease tolerant? Wait five more years you'll have some fruit. What is the fruit like? And that can go for years and then from there you you you start making taking cuttings and doing clones if you actually have a numbered variety that they they want to put a name to.

In-person participant 1 (09:16)
actually survive and does it grow? Does the vine grow? What are the growth habits? Is it disease tolerant? Wait five more years you'll have some fruit. What is the fruit like? And that can go for years and then from there you you you start making taking cuttings and doing clones if you actually have a numbered variety that they they want to put a name to.

Kristi Mayfield (09:40)
So it's very long process. our, what we grow here, and what most of the people are growing in the upper Midwest, Frontenac Noir is one of the oldest varieties. That was developed in 1996. California is a teenager with 150 years of growing experience. And they can rely on the thousand years before that.

In-person participant 1 (09:40)
So it's very long process. our, what we grow here, and what most of the people are growing in the upper Midwest, Frontenac Newar is one of the oldest varieties. That was developed in 1996. California is a teenager with 150 years of growing experience. And they can rely on the thousand years before that.

Kristi Mayfield (10:03)
we can implement some of those principles, but our chemistry is very different up here, specifically with acids.

In-person participant 1 (10:03)
we can implement some of those principles, but our chemistry is very different up here, specifically with acids.

Kristi Mayfield (10:09)
That makes sense. Now one of the things that I hear when, because I usually take some bottles back and I love sharing them with people who are more traditionalists in their wine journey. But the first thing that I always hear is, that's going to be foxy. That's going to taste funky. That's going to be weird. That's the first expectation. when are presented with those

In-person participant 1 (10:09)
That makes sense. Now one of the things that I hear when, because I usually take some bottles back and I love sharing them with people who are more traditionalists in their wine journey. But the first thing that I always hear is, that's going to be foxy. That's going to taste funky. That's going to be weird. That's the first expectation. when are presented with those

Kristi Mayfield (10:36)
types of questions or that type of response to seeing the varietals on your wine list.

In-person participant 1 (10:36)
types of questions or that type of response to seeing varietals on your wine list.

How do you see people responding when maybe that's not necessarily what they experience? Yeah, so, I would say early on in the industry, I saw a lot more of that. one thing that as we're starting to see with the demographic change of who's buying wine, especially with millennials and Gen Z, they typically are looking for those unique new things and may not, you

Kristi Mayfield (10:41)
How do you see people responding when maybe that's not necessarily what they experience? Yeah, so, I would say early on in the industry, I saw a lot more of that. You one thing that as we're starting to see with the demographic change of who's buying wine, especially with millennials and Gen Z, they typically are looking for those unique new things ⁓ and may not, you

you

In-person participant 1 (11:10)
you

Kristi Mayfield (11:11)
look to the popularity of petnats these days. So those kind of what would be considered by Napa standards as off tomes, I think are a lot more palatable, pardon the pun, for the kind of growing market. But yeah, I mean, there's still a little bit of a hesitance to try these cold climate grapes.

In-person participant 1 (11:11)
look to the popularity of pet gnats these days. So those kind of what would be considered by Napa standards as off tomes, I think are a lot more palatable, pardon the pun, for the kind of growing market. But yeah, I mean, there's still a little bit of a hesitance to try these cold climate grapes.

Kristi Mayfield (11:35)
And most of the time, I'll...

In-person participant 1 (11:35)
And most of the time, I'll...

Kristi Mayfield (11:39)
might pour something for somebody and really not tell them what's in it. Okay. And then let the wine speak for itself. There have been, you multiple times I've, for those folks who are, you know, lighter-bodied cats or pinot drinkers, pouring them a Marquette's Heavy Blend or something like that and not tell them that it's primarily hybrid. I go, ah, I really like this. What's in it? And you tell them and just, it's kind of a satisfying moment to be like, yeah.

In-person participant 1 (11:39)
might pour something for somebody and really not tell them what's in it. Okay. And then let the wine speak for itself. There have been, you multiple times I've, for those folks who are, you know, lighter-bodied cats or pinot drinkers, pouring them a Marquette's Heavy Blend or something like that and not tell them that it's primarily hybrid. I go, ah, I really like this. What's in it? And you tell them and just, it's kind of a satisfying moment to be like, yeah.

Kristi Mayfield (12:07)
You know, we know what we're doing up here.

In-person participant 1 (12:07)
You know, we know what we're doing up here.

Kristi Mayfield (12:09)
Like early on, like Mark said, this industry is young. So there were a lot of mistakes that happened early on that I totally understand why people have the hesitance. But as everyone has started raising the bar together, there's some extremely serious wine not only produced by us, but others around the area.

In-person participant 1 (12:09)
Like early on, like Mark said, this industry is young. So there were a lot of mistakes that happened early on that I totally understand why people have the hesitance. But as everyone has started raising the bar together, there's some extremely serious wine not only produced by us, but others around the area.

Kristi Mayfield (12:33)
Things were very different 25 years ago when I started and the number of cultivar available is very different. didn't have the crescent marquette either of the other two-thirds of the Frontenac family, Itasca. They didn't exist.

In-person participant 1 (12:33)
Things were very different 25 years ago when I started and the number of cultivar available is very different. didn't have the crescent marquette either of the other two-thirds of the Frontenac family, Itasca. They didn't exist.

Kristi Mayfield (12:53)
So some of those foxy nodes might have been a function of what we could actually get back then. But also most of the people in the industry locally are figuring this out locally. We're not second generation, third generation ⁓ wine growers. We're figuring it out and again, the chemistry is different so we need to figure those things out as well.

In-person participant 1 (12:53)
So some of those foxy nodes might have been a function of what we could actually get.

But also most of the people in the industry locally are figuring this out locally. We're not second generation, third generation ⁓ wine growers. We're figuring it out. again, the chemistry is different, so we need to figure those things out as well.

Kristi Mayfield (13:21)
So I have two questions and one, I'm gonna start off with the first question. Last weekend I judged a wine competition and

In-person participant 1 (13:21)
So I have two questions. And one, I'm going to start off with the first question. Last weekend, I judged a wine competition and

my team was presented with some different varietals. And one of the biggest challenges for us was, of course, we're judging on quality, but you're looking at,

Kristi Mayfield (13:29)
my team was presented with some different varietals and one of the biggest challenges for us was of course we're judging on quality but you're looking at,

sweetness, acidity, your balance, tannins, But we're also tasting on typeicity, yes. And that is a big challenge. So fortunately for me, several of the wines were, I've tasted multiple times in this area, so I had a little bit more familiarity with it. But that was one of the challenges. So typeicity is, to your point, Mark, this is still really a young in the whole scheme of

In-person participant 1 (13:41)
sweetness, acidity, balance, tannins, But we're also tasting on typeicity, yes. And that is a big challenge. So fortunately for me, several of the wines were, I tasted multiple times in this area, so I had a little bit more familiarity with it. But that was one of the challenges. So typeicity is, to your point, Mark, this is still really a young in the whole scheme of

Kristi Mayfield (14:10)
line. So does that help or does does that help you when you're making lines or is that even more of a challenge because typicity isn't something that's really a stable entity yet? I think that's exactly right. I think there's a lot of efforts in trying to find the direction for each of these cultivar but no I don't I don't believe that it is stable yet. 15 years ago some people tried to make dry Frontenac's and

In-person participant 1 (14:10)
line. So does that help or does that help you when you're making lines or is that even more of a challenge because typicity isn't something that's really a stable entity yet? I think that's exactly right. I think there's a lot of efforts in trying to find the direction for each of these cultivar but no I don't believe that it is stable yet. 15 years ago some people tried to make dry Frontenac's and

and

Kristi Mayfield (14:40)
and

In-person participant 1 (14:40)
they weren't very good. So, okay, it becomes a semi-sweet rosé, or it's a fortified wine that can be very sweet to balance all that acid. But with better viticultural practices, better oenological practices, that tide is changing. But I still don't know that we have...

Kristi Mayfield (14:40)
they weren't very good. So, okay, it becomes a semi-sweet rosé, or it's a fortified wine that can be very sweet to balance all that acid. But with better viticultural practices, better in illogical practices, that tide is changing. But I still don't know that we have...

narrowed it down. A good example right now would be Itasca, one of the newest varieties from University of trying to figure out, you know, where does that, what is the profile that is best going to suit that grape? And the other part of that is what are each of the wineries doing? Because they might all be doing things that are very different and they're all very exciting, very...

In-person participant 1 (15:02)
narrowed it down. A good example right now would be Itasca, one of the newest varieties from University of trying to figure out, you know, where does that, what is the profile that is best going to suit that grape? And the other part of that is what are each of the wineries doing? Because they might all be doing things that are very different and they're all very exciting, very...

Kristi Mayfield (15:28)
plausible efforts, statistically, but we're not.

In-person participant 1 (15:28)
plausible efforts, statistically, but we're not

Kristi Mayfield (15:32)
We're not typecast into Chardonnay tastes like this, Sauvignon Blanc tastes like this. And that's actually a very exciting opportunity to really drive the future of these varietals in different stylistic ways. And it also gives the opportunity, I would think, again, I don't want to assume, but doesn't it also give the opportunity to say,

In-person participant 1 (15:32)
We're not typecast into Chardonnay tastes like this, Sauvignon Blanc tastes like this. And that's actually a very exciting opportunity to really drive the future of these varietals in different stylistic ways. And it also gives the opportunity, I would think, again, I don't want to assume, but doesn't it also give the opportunity to say,

Kristi Mayfield (15:56)
there's not just one approved style of Itasca There's not maybe one specific stylistic vein of Marquette. Maybe we can be looking more broadly across the opportunity. yeah, mean that it seems that...

In-person participant 1 (15:56)
there's not just one approved style of Patasca. There's not maybe one specific stylistic vein of Marquette. Maybe we can be looking more broadly across the opportunity. yeah, mean that it seems that...

Kristi Mayfield (16:13)
kind of within broader black world, sometimes that is, I think, better understood than, we almost seem like an exception to that rule. You look at a grape-like Riesling I mean, it's not just one style across the world, especially when it's terroir driven too. Like you mentioned Sauvignon Blanc, New Zealand versus South African versus French, they're all completely different wines. And one thing that I...

In-person participant 1 (16:13)
kind of within broader black world, sometimes that is, I think, better understood than, we almost seem like an exception to that rule. You look at a grape-like reason, I mean, it's not just one style across the world. And especially when it's terroir driven too. Like you mentioned Sauvignon Blanc, New Zealand versus South African versus French, they're all completely different wines.

One thing that I want

Kristi Mayfield (16:39)
to kind of add on is you know also seeing the evolution that I have drinking the wine in this area is

In-person participant 1 (16:39)
to kind of add on is, you know, also seeing the evolution that I have drinking the wine in this area is I feel that there's a lot more ⁓ examples of winemakers really...

Kristi Mayfield (16:47)
I feel that there's a lot more examples of winemakers really

In-person participant 1 (16:53)
Speaking to terroir that the sense of place and not just trying to Put marquette and go. Oh, yeah, we we should appeal to the cab drinkers by making it as as possible They're going no, let's lean on what this grape is actually telling us to do another part of that is

Kristi Mayfield (16:53)
speaking to terroir, the sense of place, and not just trying to put marquette and go, yeah, we should appeal to the cab drinkers by making it as big as possible. They're going, no, let's lean on what this grape is actually telling us to do. Another part of that is...

In-person participant 1 (17:12)
I've never worked in a California tasting room. So I'm going to assume based on the profile of most of the wines Customers visiting those wineries are preferring

Kristi Mayfield (17:12)
I've never worked in a California tasting room, I'm going to assume based on the profile of most of the wines, customers visiting those wineries are preferring

off dry and dry wines. like to talk dry, but...

In-person participant 1 (17:23)
off dry and dry wines. like to talk dry, but

perfectly honest, in the Midwest, sugar sells. They're drinking the sweeter, semi-sweeter, sweeter wines. Now, that demographic is changing with greater education, but a good example would be another winery that's on the west side of the metro, the Twin Cities.

Kristi Mayfield (17:27)
perfectly honest, in the Midwest, sugar sells. They're drinking the sweeter, semi-sweeter, sweeter wines. Now, that demographic is changing with greater education, but a good example would be another winery that's on the west side of the metro, the Twin Cities.

in a more affluent neighborhood, they sell a lot more dry wine than we do. But they've started introducing some semi-sweet wines and those are kind of overtaking and they're surprised by that. If I look at our portfolio compared to theirs...

In-person participant 1 (17:45)
in a more affluent neighborhood, they sell a lot more dry wine than we do. But they've started introducing some semi-sweet wines and those are kind of overtaking and they're surprised by that. If I look at our portfolio compared to theirs,

we would not be a successful winery selling the wines that they're selling because our clientele doesn't want that. Our clientele wants a bit of a sweeter wine.

Kristi Mayfield (17:59)
we would not be a successful winery selling the wines that they're selling because our clientele doesn't want that. Our clientele wants a bit of a sweeter wine.

In-person participant 1 (18:10)
So we have a large portfolio. have

Kristi Mayfield (18:10)
So we have a large portfolio. have...

In-person participant 1 (18:13)
all aspects of residual sugar involved in the portfolio. And so we have some wine sitting in front of us. Walk us through what these are. So what would you have on top? St. Walk.

Kristi Mayfield (18:13)
all aspects of residual sugar involved in the portfolio. And so we have some wine sitting in front of us. Walk us through what these are. So what would you have on top? St. Walk.

So all of these would qualify as predominantly estate grown, 75 % or more. Most of them are.

In-person participant 1 (18:26)
So all of these would qualify as predominantly estate grown, 75 % or more. Most of them are.

More than that. So the top one is St. Block. That is a one-off. We do special projects every year, experimentals, see what sticks. That one is equal parts St. Pepin, which is a Elmer-Swenson variety, and Frontenac Block, which is a University of Minnesota variety. That is dry.

Kristi Mayfield (18:36)
More than that. So the top one is St. Block. That is a one-off. We do special projects every year, ⁓ experimentals, see what sticks. That one is equal parts St. Pepin, which is a Elmer-Swenson variety, and Frontenac Block, which is a University of Minnesota variety. That is ⁓ dry.

Second one is Ballet. Ballet, state grown, the crescent is the main grape, but there are three other grapes behind it. Then Marquesa. Marquesa. So Marquesa is 85 % Marquette. ⁓

In-person participant 1 (18:58)
Second one is Ballet. Ballet, state grown, the crescent is the main grape, but there are three other grapes behind it. Then Marquesa. Marquesa. So Marquesa is 85 % Marquette. ⁓

Kristi Mayfield (19:12)
There's a small amount of vinifera in there to help bolster the tannins. One of the things that we lack a bit on with the hybrids is a lower amount of tannin. It helps it just give it a little more And the bottom one is? A conga. Okay, so conga. Now this is going to be a line that's going to fit very well in our demographic.

In-person participant 1 (19:12)
There's a small amount of vinifera in there to help bolster the tannins. One of the things that we lack a bit on with the hybrids is a lower amount of tannin. It helps just give it a little more And the bottom one is? A conga. Okay, so conga. Now this is going to be a line that's going to fit very well in our demographic.

Kristi Mayfield (19:35)
Okay. That's coming in at about 3 % RS. But you have to, for me to just tell you it's 3 % RS doesn't mean anything because if you're not familiar with the acidity level of our limes. So if this were a Vnifera and I said 3%, you'd oh my God, how sweet is this going to be? Comparatively, it probably tastes like a California wine with 1.5 % RS.

In-person participant 1 (19:35)
Okay. That's coming in at about 3 % RS. But you have to, for me to just tell you it's 3 % RS doesn't mean anything because if you're not familiar with the acidity level of our limes. So if this were a Vnifera and I said 3%, you'd oh my God, how sweet is this going to be? Comparatively, it probably tastes like a California wine with 1.5 % RS.

Kristi Mayfield (19:59)
And then the bottom one is a brute, um, champenoise, method champenoise, uh, that is 100 % of state-of-the-art as well. Quite, quite a diversity. one of the tests that I do in some of my in-person classes is simply with

In-person participant 1 (19:59)
And then the bottom one is a brute, um, champenoise, method champenoise, uh, that is 100 % of state here on as well.

Okay, quite a diversity. one of the tests that I do in some of my in-person classes is simply with

Kristi Mayfield (20:19)
tartaric acid and some sugar water and having those heavy percentages of each together and then adding the tartaric right into the sugar water and it's unbelievable the response to

In-person participant 1 (20:19)
tartaric acid and some sugar water, and having those heavy percentages of each together and then adding the tartaric right into the sugar water, and it's unbelievable the response.

to exactly your point mark of acidity, cutting back with sugar tends to completely balances it where it shouldn't make sense. But I always tell people, do you drink plain lemon juice or do you add sugar to

Kristi Mayfield (20:34)
exactly your point mark of acidity cutting back with sugar tends to completely balances it where it shouldn't make sense. But I always tell people do you drink plain lemon juice or do you add sugar to

to your lemon juice to get lemonade, then that's the type of language that starts to make sense. Yeah. For the educated listener, if they want to geek out a little bit, your average cap is what, five grams per liter of Tectorra.

In-person participant 1 (20:48)
your lemon juice to get lemonade? Then that's the type of language that starts to make sense. For the educated listener, if they want to geek out a little bit, your average cap is what, five grams per liter of

The Marquesa is, even though that's dry,

Kristi Mayfield (21:05)
The Marquesa is, even though that's dry,

In-person participant 1 (21:09)
that's probably six and a half or seven. The conga is probably fully eight. wow, that's a lot of, yeah. But the grapes that are in that, that one is a blend of five different grapes. Marquette is the lead in it.

Kristi Mayfield (21:09)
that's probably six and a half or seven. The conga is probably fully eight. wow, that's a lot of... But the grapes that are in that, that one is a blend of five different grapes. Marquette is the lead in it.

But some of those grapes come out of the vineyard at 12 or 13 grams per liter. Very, very acidic, yeah. Yeah, and the white star can be even more acidic. ⁓

In-person participant 1 (21:22)
But some of those grapes come out of the vineyard at 12 or 13 grams per liter. through, Very, very acidic, yeah. Yeah, and the whites are, can be even more acidic. But through aggressive

Kristi Mayfield (21:35)
aggressive

natural and biological work in the cellar, cold stabilization.

In-person participant 1 (21:36)
natural and biological work in the cellar, cold stabilization.

Kristi Mayfield (21:41)
using correct yeast that maybe metabolize some of the malic acid, those things all help. But it also means our grapes are fantastic for sparkling wines. Of course, yes. So this gets a little geeky, you said early on, one of the reasons vinifera cannot survive here is it doesn't have a long enough ripening season.

In-person participant 1 (21:41)
using crepe yeast that maybe metabolize some of the malic acid, those things all help. But it also means our grapes are fantastic for sparkling wines. Of course, yes. So this gets a little you said early on, one of the reasons vinifera cannot survive here is it doesn't have a long enough ripening season.

in the world of hybrids because you can get enough phenolics, you can get enough flavor, but you're never really getting into that extended growing time where the acidity is falling off or are these grapes just so naturally high in acidity or is it kind of a combination of two? It's a combination. We can get there. It's not uncommon for some of our varieties to be in excess of 24, 25,

Kristi Mayfield (22:03)
in the world of hybrids because you can get enough phenolics, you can get enough flavor, but you're never really getting into that extended growing time where the acidity is falling off or are these grapes just so naturally high in acidity or is it kind of a combination of two? It's a combination. We can get there. It's not uncommon for some of our varieties to be in excess of 24, 24,

Okay, so that's really right. Okay. Yeah, but again because of in most cases the Vitis Raparia in the background.

In-person participant 1 (22:31)
Okay, so that's really right. Yeah, but again because of in most cases the Vitis Raparia in the

Kristi Mayfield (22:40)
that malic and tartaric are just gonna be there. we've talked a lot about hybrids as a single varietal, but James,

In-person participant 1 (22:40)
that malik and tartaric are just gonna be there. we've talked a lot about hybrids as a single varietal, but James,

Kristi Mayfield (22:48)
You mentioned something about blends. do these lean more towards blending grapes or single varietals? Or does it really matter? The vast majority of wineries are listing their wines as single variety wines. That doesn't necessarily mean they're 100 % of course. 75 or above,

In-person participant 1 (22:48)
You mentioned something about blends. do these lean more towards blending grapes or single varietals? Or does it really matter? The vast majority of wineries are listing their wines as single variety wines. That doesn't necessarily mean they're 100 % of course. 75 or above,

Kristi Mayfield (23:06)
but we were focusing on the bridal name but this is this is 15 20 years ago when the education level was

In-person participant 1 (23:06)
but we were focusing on the bridal name but this is this is 15 20 years ago when the education level was

Kristi Mayfield (23:16)
You got it easy, James. That's all I can say. mean, nobody could identify with these names.

In-person participant 1 (23:16)
You got it easy, James. That's all I can say. mean, nobody could identify with these names.

Kristi Mayfield (23:23)
Some of them we couldn't even legally put on a label because the TTB hadn't recognized them yet. ⁓ interesting. So the education was different. I hope I live long enough where you know we don't have to explain a marquette that it is the grandson of Pinot Noir and these are the characteristics. Maybe people say ⁓ I'm looking for a marquette. Whether it's here or more importantly in a liquor store.

In-person participant 1 (23:23)
Some of them we couldn't even legally put on a label because the TTV hadn't recognized them yet. ⁓ interesting. the education was different. I hope I live long enough where you know we don't have to explain a marquette that it is the grandson of Pinot Noir and these are the characteristics. Maybe people say ⁓ I'm looking for a marquette. Whether it's here or more importantly in a liquor store.

Kristi Mayfield (23:49)
and maybe we're in general population, not on an end cap that's all local. And I agree with that. I would love for us to get to the point where...

In-person participant 1 (23:49)
and maybe we're in general population, not on an end cap that's all local. And I agree with that. I would love for us to get to the point where...

Kristi Mayfield (24:00)
people would be surprised that it's the grandson of Pinot Noir, just like whenever you drop the fact that Cabernet Sauvignon is the grandson of Sauvignon Blanc. People go, what? That would be a fantastic place to get to. And yeah, I I've been to conferences where, the final night where everyone's drinking each other's wines, getting into heated arguments over that, over blends versus single riles.

In-person participant 1 (24:00)
people would be surprised that it's the grandson of Pinot Noir, just like whenever you drop the fact that Kevin A. Sauvignon is the grandson of Sauvignon Blanc. People go, what? That would be a fantastic place to get to. And yeah, I I've been to conferences where, the final night where everyone's drinking each other's wines, getting tequila arguments over that, over blends versus single riles.

Kristi Mayfield (24:25)
It's actually interesting that the folks who tend to be a little bit further south than us are a lot more satisfied with those single varietals than the blends. the focus here, that's a lot of what the owner wants, and he's not wrong, ⁓ we can do a better job blending wine and getting a more consistent product.

In-person participant 1 (24:25)
It's actually interesting that the folks who tend to be a little bit further south than us are a lot more satisfied with those single varietals than the blends. the focus here, that's a lot of what the owner wants, and he's not wrong, ⁓ we can do a better job blending wine and getting a more consistent product.

Kristi Mayfield (24:48)
in having a far more interesting product. Well, you think about some of the most renowned wines in the world, like it or not, they're blends. as long as you're making wines that are true to the spirit of what this region is about and delivering the quality that you're delivering, I think it is worth it for people to give it a try. So I get excited when

In-person participant 1 (24:48)
in having a far more interesting product. Well, you think about some of the most renowned wines in the world, like it or not, they're blends. as long as you're making wines that are true to the spirit of what this region is about and delivering the quality that you're delivering, I think it is worth it for people to give it a try. So I get excited when

Kristi Mayfield (25:15)
I start seeing different varietals especially in the hybrids one more broadly available to getting recognition from whether that's wine competitions or people in the industry whether it's sommeliers or restaurateurs recognizing that these are great wines so let's not think about what vitas they come from let's just think about the quality that they

In-person participant 1 (25:15)
I start seeing different varietals especially in the hybrids one more broadly available to getting recognition from whether that's wine competitions or people in the industry whether it's sommeliers or restaurateurs recognizing that these are great wines so let's not think about what vitas they come from let's just think about the quality that they

Kristi Mayfield (25:40)
deliver. So in that vein when we're talking about your still wines what would you share with our listener? What mistakes do you think they've made and where do you think they need to change their thought process around hybrids? Well like I mentioned a little bit before the new kind of generation of folks getting into wine while you know there are some sectors that are lagging

In-person participant 1 (25:40)
deliver. So in that vein when we're talking about your still wines, what would you share with our listener? What mistakes do you think they've made and where do you think they need to change their thought process around hybrids? Well, like I mentioned a little bit before, the new kind of generation of folks getting into wine. While you know there are some sectors that are

Kristi Mayfield (26:06)
I took a year sabbatical to work at a small boutique wine shop, And just the amount of excitement that people got, know, this boutique wine shop had, you know, ancient, lots of grapes from Georgian varieties, know, stuff that...

In-person participant 1 (26:06)
I took a year sabbatical to work at a small boutique wine shop, ⁓ And just the amount of excitement that people got, you know, this boutique wine shop had, you know, ancient, lots of grapes from Georgian varieties, know, stuff that

Kristi Mayfield (26:23)
you don't necessarily come across in your local liquor store. And

In-person participant 1 (26:23)
you don't necessarily come across in your local liquor store.

Kristi Mayfield (26:29)
I feel like the industry can lean on that kind of rebelness that this is a new up and coming region. And I'm seeing...

In-person participant 1 (26:29)
I feel like the industry can lean on that kind of rebelness that, you know, this is a new upcoming region.

Kristi Mayfield (26:42)
we can take maybe some lessons from other regions that have been making excellent wines. The Finger Lakes comes to mind. They've been making phenomenal wines for 40 years and all of sudden they're now just being recognized. I hear more people getting excited to go to wine country in the Finger Lakes than I ever have, with the same level that they were going to Sonoma.

In-person participant 1 (26:42)
we can take maybe some lessons from other regions that have been making excellent wines. The Finger Lakes comes to mind. They've been making phenomenal wines for 40 years and all of sudden they're now just being recognized. I hear more people getting excited to go to wine country in the Finger Lakes than I ever have, with the same level that they were going to Sonoma.

Kristi Mayfield (27:05)
I don't think that's going to happen in our region tomorrow, but that's encouraging. think another way for this industry, hybrid industry to speak to the wines too, is really, ⁓ I like to do it through pairings, through food pairings. getting people to think about the wines in that regard. ⁓

In-person participant 1 (27:05)
I don't think that's going to happen in our region tomorrow, but that's encouraging.

I think another way for this industry, hybrid industry, to speak to the wines too is really, ⁓ I like to do it through pairings, through food getting people to think about the wines in that regard.

Kristi Mayfield (27:26)
Because, how many times have heard somebody go, I didn't get Cabernet until I paired it with a filet mignon. it's one of those things. It's a great avenue. I don't know if it's accurate or not, but I sometimes think

In-person participant 1 (27:26)
Because many times have heard somebody go, I didn't get Cabernet until I paired it with a Filet Mignon.

It's one of those things. It's a great avenue. don't know if it's accurate or not, but I sometimes think

Kristi Mayfield (27:37)
Our wines shine when they're paired with food because of that bright acidity. But there's also a changing demographic that's happened over last 15 years where, and I think...

In-person participant 1 (27:37)
our wines shine when they're paired with food because of that bright acidity. But there's also a changing demographic that's happened over last 15 years where, and I think...

Kristi Mayfield (27:50)
credit maybe goes to that other New World place, Australia, for putting out younger, fresher, drink it now wines instead of older, bigger, robust, dusty. Right. And I do believe if you're talking about some of the clientele that are really embracing hybrids, one, the exploration, the experience, but also the flavor palates and the high acidity when you think about the beverages that they might have been consuming.

In-person participant 1 (27:50)
credit maybe goes to that other New World place, Australia, for putting out younger, fresher, drink it now wines instead of older, bigger, robust, dusty. Right. And I do believe if you're talking about some of the clientele that are really embracing hybrids, one, the exploration, the experience, but also the flavor palates and the high acidity when you think about the beverages that they might have been consuming.

Kristi Mayfield (28:18)
Those are a lot of high acidity when you think about seltzers, things like that. But also the little bit of sweetness, think you're seeing your clientele enjoy, it's a very nice transition, I would think, for that demographic to come into this style of wine. There's also a pretty broad customer base that we won't mention any names, but think they're drinking dry California wine, and it's not.

In-person participant 1 (28:18)
those are a lot of high acidity when you think about seltzers things like that. But also the little bit of sweetness I think you're seeing your clientele enjoy a very nice transition I would think for that demographic to come into this of wine.

There's also a pretty broad customer base that we won't mention any names but think they're drinking dry California wine and it's not. It's not.

Kristi Mayfield (28:45)
I'm always trying to switch out and go, let's do this instead of this because you know there's a lot of manipulation and I'm big on more of the purity of what comes out of the video. We kind of giggle internally when we look

In-person participant 1 (28:46)
I'm always trying to switch out and go let's do this instead of this because you know there's a lot of manipulation and I'm big on more of the purity of what comes out of the vinegar. Yeah. We kind of giggle internally when we

at some of the you know the national marketing of

Kristi Mayfield (29:02)
at some of the you know the national marketing of

In-person participant 1 (29:05)
not producers but I suppose they are technically a wholesaler. only sell wines that are this this and this and they talk about some of the additives and mega purple.

Kristi Mayfield (29:06)
not producers but I suppose they are technically a wholesaler. only sell wines that are this, this and this. And they talk about some of the additives in mega purple.

We don't use any of that. We don't need to. Some of our wines are lighter in body, but they're also, most of our hybrid grapes are tenturier grapes. The flesh is also red. We don't need to bolster the color. No, and that's one of my favorite things, truly, about some of the red varietals up here because they are so different not only as a grape, but then just the way that that translates into the finished wine can be really, really pretty.

In-person participant 1 (29:20)
We don't use any of that. We don't need to. Some of our wines are lighter in body, they're also, most of our hybrid grapes are Tinturi grapes. The flesh is also red. We don't need to bolster the color. No, and that's one of my favorite things, truly, about some of the red varietals up here because they are so different not only as a grape, but then just the way that that translates into the finished wine can be really, really pretty.

Kristi Mayfield (29:46)
we're gonna come back next week together and we're going to be talking about the sparkling and some of your other styles of wine that you're making here but any last words for people who might never have even heard of any of the the varietals that we've been talking about today yeah I mean you know with with these grape varietals like I said it's it's something new you know it's

In-person participant 1 (29:46)
we're gonna come back next week together and we're going to be talking about the sparkling and some of your other styles of wine that you're making here but any last words for people who might never have even heard of any of the the varietals that we've been talking about today yeah I mean you know with with these grape varietals like I said it's it's something new you know it's

Kristi Mayfield (30:10)
being kind of positioning ourselves, you maybe as a rebel wine region, I think, is a good way to think about us. You know, and there are these wines that are produced all across this region that are anthemic, they are vibrant. To Mark's point earlier, you know.

In-person participant 1 (30:10)
being kind of positioning ourselves, you maybe as a rebel wine region, I think, is a good way to think about us. You know, and there are these wines that are produced all across this region that are anthemic, they are vibrant. To Mark's point earlier, you know.

Kristi Mayfield (30:27)
It's kind of like sometimes I'll get sick of IPAs, right? I'm sick of, you know, having the same old thing and I just want, I don't know, a coffee stout know, having that fresh palette or that new thing touch your palette, think really opens up avenues for people really get nerdy and, you know.

In-person participant 1 (30:27)
It's kind of like sometimes I'll get sick of IPAs, right? I'm sick of, you know, having the same old thing and I just want, I don't know, a coffee salad. know, having that fresh palette or that new thing touch your palette, think really opens up avenues for people really get nerdy and, you know.

Kristi Mayfield (30:48)
get into other new cooking methods or whatever, know, this liquid has a great way of.

In-person participant 1 (30:48)
get into other new cooking methods or whatever. This liquid has a great way of

different avenues in which to enjoy other things in your life.

Kristi Mayfield (30:53)
different avenues in which to enjoy other things in your life.

I like the term, rebel wine industry. Because that's what I appreciate so much. You don't have to try to be anybody else. And you shouldn't try to be anybody else. Be yourself. And I think that's really coming through in your wines. The only thing I would add is if you're new to what we are doing up here, if your experience isn't overwhelming at one place, try another place.

In-person participant 1 (30:57)
I like the term, the rebel wine industry. Because that's what I appreciate so much. You don't have to try to be anybody else. And you shouldn't try to be anybody else. Be yourself. And I think that's really coming through in your wines. The only thing I would add is if you're new to what we are doing up here, if your experience isn't overwhelming at one place, try another place.

Kristi Mayfield (31:20)
We're all relatively young in learning.

In-person participant 1 (31:20)
We're all relatively young in learning.

Kristi Mayfield (31:25)
And it's no different. If you're in California, not all producers are equal. you know, give multiple wineries a chance and I'm sure you'll find something that might just really pop for you.

In-person participant 1 (31:25)
And it's no different if you're in California not all producers are equal. So you know give multiple wineries a chance and I'm sure you'll find something that might just really pop for you.

Kristi Mayfield (31:40)
I know you now share the excitement and enthusiasm that the Dancing Dragonfly team has for hybrid grapes. And I hope you will start to seek them out, whether it's in your local wine shop or on your next wine adventure. And if you enjoyed learning about hybrid grapes, make sure you're following the show and definitely share it with all your fellow wine-loving friends. They will thank you for getting the same insights

on wine you're getting from Everyday Sommelier. Now a quick note, we'd also love for you to follow us on Instagram, but we have changed our handle. Our handle is now Kristi, K-R-I-S-T-I underscore SIP Society Collective. You can see it in the show notes. If you were already following us, you're still following us today, but make sure you take note of that new handle.

And because we had so much fun with the Dancing Dragonfly team, we only got to cover still wines in this episode. So stay tuned for next episode where we are going to dive into other styles of wine with a little bit of sparkle and a little sugar on top. And until then, go seek out a new hybrid grape varietal and pour it in your glass tonight while you continue to learn wine your way.